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Sailor Moon discussion
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Sailor Moon discussion
Topic Owner: SailorJupiter
Topic: Since this site is about Sailormoon, we should have a topic to discuss it. Yes?
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@Magus;
The form is closer to the Manga variant. If it really was her "Super" form,she'd have a gold crescent moon in the middle of her Tiara, a yellow choker with a red heart, translucent shoulder... things, and the skirt would be white with yellow then blue at the bottom.

The hair decorations and the extra accessory on her choker is "regular form". The original anime didn't bother with the white hair decorations until Super and Eternal.

I hope this is the right information and that I didn't end up chasing my tail in circles.
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"Beneath this mask, there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask, Mr. Creedy, there is an idea... and ideas ARE bulletproof!
Still not liking the meatball hazard lights.
Life is like an orange, it is small, round and has a few pips in it... Oh, and some have half of one for breakfast.
That was in Classic. So was her hearing Naru's voice out of nowhere. Hell, you'd think that she could have that power all the time. It would sure save her a lot of trouble down the road.
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I had wondered why after the first episode her meatballs lost their psychic abilities as well.

Also, how later down the road, the Luna Pen basically gets forgotten about even though the power of disguise has proven quite useful.
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"Beneath this mask, there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask, Mr. Creedy, there is an idea... and ideas ARE bulletproof!
So do you think Jadeite is alive or do you think that the animators thought that a charred corpse in a glass coffin would be a bit too much?
signature image Some things can't be unseen.
Holy crap crackers, I really liked Rey's transformation.

My impression was that Jadeite was able to teleport out of Rei's blast before he was turned to ashes. You'll note that in both of the prior episodes we got to actually see the enemy reduced to dust after they were defeated, right? It could be they are just going to have Beryl finish him off because she's pissed at him, though.

Could there be a shittenou x sailor senshi pairing in the works? That seems to be the going theory for leaving him around based on comments by folks over on Facebook
So this is interesting. I am not familiar enough with the Manga to know if this is a major deviation, but are we now officially in new story-thread territory with Crystal re: Jadeite?
I do believe he dies in the original manga during the first encounter with Mars. Interesting to see where they're taking it.
signature image Hello, sweetie!
Yes, in the manga all four Shitennou die and become crystals, which are gathered and kept by Tuxedo Kamen and end up saving him from a lethal sword blow in the penultimate battle.
This is very very interesting. I only just now finally watched the Makoto episode and his little "i know this face" definitely confirms they plan to play up the 4 shitennou subplot and hopefully expand on it a lot more than even the manga!

Such a fantastic episode.

I have to say the more I watch, the better this is getting. I'm so relieved.
I can understand why those who are fans of the Manga would love how this series is going so far. But to be honest, I really have mixed feelings about it being that I never really liked the original print. I was hoping that the pace of the story would be slowed and more personality given to the characters on both sides of the divide. But that doesn't seem like what we're going to be getting. I'm a bit disappointed in that. There should be more liberties taken then just merely pandering to the "shipping" crowd between the Senshi and Shitennou.

Regardless, I find it to be an interesting watch. Maybe the crew will grow a set down the road and feel the need to fill in the gaps, as it were. But I'm really not holding my breath at this point. I just watch and try to take it what it is now. But it still doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated at times of what Crystal could have been.
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My guess is that they want to hurry up and get the characters introduced before they would be willing to slow things down and work on character growth. None of the old fans are likely to wait through episodes and episodes of personal growth.
Magus - How are things on your end? It's been a while. I remember these same discussions. I am very disappointed in the new series. This new setup is doing nothing that the old one didn't do, but better.
Life is like an orange, it is small, round and has a few pips in it... Oh, and some have half of one for breakfast.
This latest episode was next-level for me. I love how quickly things are moving along. All of the soldiers are united and now it's just the Silver Crystal that needs to make its appearance!

Thank god they dumped the stupid rainbow crystal subplot from the old anime. That was majorly boring.
Rather than fangirl all over the message board, I present this fangirl fangirling all over the latest episode.

I'm just caring less and less with each episode. I spoke my piece that I don't like the Manga and that Crystal seems to do nothing to fix the problems that it has. There's also word that they will get into the Black Moon arc before the first season is done which, if true, would seem to be the final nail in the coffin for me. Don't get me wrong, I'll still watch it. But you won't catch me buying it sometime soon.

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure was able to get away with this because that series not only never got a proper anime adaption, but it's something that has shortcomings that actually contributed to how stupidly awesome it was. You knew the kind of ride you were getting and it never took itself seriously.

Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood could get away with this because the story is just that damn good. Hiromu Arakawa can actually write. Naoko Takeuchi can't, unfortunately. She just can't. And I'm not ripping on her for it. It's just a fact. She was young when she did it and never got proper help on how to flesh out her story. She has even admitted this herself. So why would anyone, even her, want to leave most of the sketchy and loose plot unchanged. It's because they don't want to upset the fans on the original manga. They don't want to gamble on its marketability.

The original Sailor Moon manga just tries to cash in and manipulate its audience without actually ever giving them a chance to care about the characters that it's selling. With all the pointless filler that the old anime Sailor Moon had, it still served to let the characters grow on us and love them for what they are. In Crystal, as someone from another board I frequent put it, you can put Ami in Sailor Mars's outfit and you'd never know the difference. The entire plot of the first arc can be done in a 90 minute movie. Which I have no doubt they will do down the road.

They should have left it alone. Good for you if you're enjoying this. I'm happy for you, I really am. I just hate to see an old IP get the modern treatment like this.

I dunno. I'm rambling at this point. Especially since I'll still watch it. I probably shouldn't complain so much.
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Magus worded my thoughts perfectly. He also knows his stuff when it comes to complex story arcs. I am very dissapointed at the buffer treatment the new series is getting. They had a golden opportunity to fix all the glaring story-breaking plot problems from the first iteration.
Life is like an orange, it is small, round and has a few pips in it... Oh, and some have half of one for breakfast.
  Magus12000BC  you mention a lot of faults but never really spell them out-- I would love to see a detailed exegesis from either of you about why you feel the story is sketchy and loose plot points. I think many readers will have a harder time picking them out for themselves, which actually is a testament to how much Takeuchi did with what she had.

I have a feeling that you'll pick up on some of the obvious holes in the plot that don't make a lot of sense, but unlike you, I think most of us are happy to ignore them because this is an adaptation many of us have wanted, warts and all.

If this series is a success, I have no doubt that we'll see yet another adaptation down the road which may address the issues with the story that you reference...but for me this series is perfect in its unashamed, naive honesty and its obvious flaws.

In other words, I think it makes sense that a story about a bunch of tween magic girls wouldn't have a deep and compelling set of characters at the beginning. They grow up with the series and become darker and more interesting as the arcs move. I honestly feel like you guys are misguided about wanting these characters to have depth so early on in the series. That was, IMHO, one of the things the original anime got completely wrong.

These are little girls, not adults. They should be little girls and have shallow personalities. That's the magic of the story. They grow into their roles because they have to. They've been ripped away from their tweenie angst lives and have had to learn to behave like adults so quickly because, if they don't, they will die and everyone they love will die.
I've actually dealt with Magnus on this point on several occasions during the planning of a game we have put some time into. He knows his stuff when it comes to Sailor Moon.

There are some major, glaring, horrible, plotholes in Sailor Moon. The original characters did have more depth than in this rehash. There is a fine line between a 2d character profile, and something that starts as surface only, and works into something more. With a 2d character, development means nothing; the character is a puppet. A 3d character has room to grow.

Also, teens can definitely have meaningful personalities from the start, check out Kokoro Connect.

I figure where we differ; if they are going to bother re-doing the graphics, and audio, and touch up the writing. All of the changes might as well be good changes. I went into this adaptation with low expectations, and they haven't moved much.

All in all, it is nothing more than a fun little show about magic school girls, so it doesn't matter really.
Life is like an orange, it is small, round and has a few pips in it... Oh, and some have half of one for breakfast.
Before I get into my response, I want to clear the air on one key point. My arguments at this point and time are stemming from the first arc. The second arc onwards aren't really relevant to my points at this time because the most important part of any story is starting it and hooking your audience. And this is something that I believe that the first arc of the Manga and Crystal do terribly. This is not a gripe of the continuity as a whole.


The reason why my points are vague and somewhat overarching is because the problems I have with the Manga/Crystal are very simple and basic that falls into the bare bones of "Storytelling 101". I have an issue with pacing and character development. Most fans of the old Anime that aren't fans of the original Manga will commonly have this gripe. But for the sake of clarity, and the fact that you asked for it, I'm going to tackle each individually and express how the Dark Kingdom arc just falls flat on its face. Even though these two elements are deeply entwined with one another.


Pacing is something that is pretty much break neck compared to the old anime. And while that isn't saying much since SM Classic just had filler, after filler, after filler,af...r fi...er, a..., it did serve some purpose. The biggest thing that it did was give a sense that this conflict between the Senshi and the Dark Kingdom was a pretty big deal. Things started out small enough when Jadeite shows his face. But the more the Senshi intervened, the higher the stakes got for both parties. You really don't get that kind of sense when a DK General lasts only three episodes at the most as opposed to what used to be ten or twelve. The longer any conflict goes on with a gradual steps in progress, the better idea you have as the audience how much of a big deal all that is going on really is. Granted, the old anime pushed that envelope WAAAAAY too far. But it's far more appealing for a story to take its time and attempt to keep you interested along the way, then to go from 0 to 60 in four seconds and risk losing your audience completely.

If you want a good example how the pace of a series can be picked up without going too fast, look at Mobile Suit Gundam. The TV Series versus the Movie Trilogy is a fine example of how you can take 43 episodes each running at roughly 22 minutes a piece (over 15 hours) down to three movies running at about 95 minutes a piece (4.75 hours). And very little was cut in terms of plot relevance. This is the finest example of tuning up the pacing of a long story and the best TV to Movie transition ever to hit anime in general.

Now you might say, "Crystal cut the time of Classic at about the same rate. What's the problem?" Normally, you'd be right. But the problem stems that the plot of Sailor Moon is far more simple then Gundam. So instead of turning an olympic sized pool into a manageable backyard pool, you're taking an inflatable kiddie pool and turning it into a dixie cup. You don't want to oversimplify your plot. And that's what the fast pacing of Crystal does. Everything get introduced and thrown into the fray so quick and nobody has a chance to even breathe that anybody who isn't already familiar with the franchise could very well wonder why the hell they should care about what's going on in the first place.

The story couldn't be simpler already. It's basically a movie plot. What the old anime gave us was interesting characters that we could get to know and love and plenty of time to grow and show us their personalities. Now we're going to cut all that out and basically make a movie that's over 90 minutes long and churned out in increments. This is pretty much Michael Bay's Transformers. And this segways into the second gripe.


Character development is so bare bones that it almost isn't even there. Tell me how many scenes in Crystal do we get of Usagi at home? How long are the scenes of any of the Senshi at school aside from shoehorning the next girl for you to look at. Hell, poor Venus hasn't even gotten that. She just tells and doesn't show. What director worth their damn salt is going to tell rather then show?

Venus: I go to school.
Me: Really? I'd really like to see that sometime.
Venus: I can't. We have to skip to the next looming threat.
Me: Can't it wait? I want to get to know you a bit more first.
Venus: Nope. I have to make it backstage in five minutes before my batteries die.

And that's what all, ALL the characters are reduced to. Soulless robots devoid of personality or background. Sure, you get glimpses of Beryl, Usagi, and Mamoru. And that's well and good. But what the hell is the point of introducing characters if all you're going to tell me is age, residence, and one measly character trait. Why are they even here? Why not just have Beryl, Usagi, and Mamoru because they are the only characters that matter.

Again, even Mobile Suit Gundam had time even after all the TV fluff was cut, they still found time to spend on Hayato, Kai, and Sayla. And you watched them all grow from their experiences. It wasn't just Amuro going out in the Gundam over and over again. The crew meant something, however little it ultimately was. The Inner Senshi, however, mean nothing. Absolutely nothing! Nothing separates or defines them. No adequate time is given to them except to show them as members of a team, not as individuals. You can't connect to characters like that.

Again, you can connect with them because you already know who they are. You're familiar with the franchise and come to expect certain things from them. A newbie coming through seeing Crystal for the first time not knowing anything about Sailor Moon is going to be lost.

Newbie: Which girl is the smart one? Is it that tall chick?

Because honestly, past their introductions, they seem to lose any semblance of what little had already been established about them.



So what I'm really saying is, they cut out everything that gave the simplistic story any substance and turned it into something that shouldn't be more then 90 minutes long. In trying to rush things and introduce everybody at once, you basically slow the pace of your sped up story. Just like how Classic had nothing of substance going on for episodes at a time, now you have Crystal that simply can't find time for anything but dicks around too long trying to show you how cool all the girls are. You've gone from a person that will just drone on and on without shutting up, to someone who's hyperactive and get string a coherent sentence together while pointing at things.


So many things go on so fast that nothing makes sense and can't be bothered to be explained. And yes, this can be very well done without forced exposition. Seeing the girls learn their new powers would be a start.


And as for your final point about the age of a character having a direct effect on how they can be developed, that is laughably untrue. You can have a cast of characters composed entirely of kindergarteners. And you can make each of them unique and three dimensional while giving them room to develop and grow. It doesn't matter or old or young a character is. It all depends on how you implement them and how important you want them to be in your story. Time can be given to each of them on who they are and how they view those around them. And most importantly, what motivates them to do what they do.

A character and a role it is slipped into have to be molded into one another. If you want that character to be important to the plot and your audience to follow it, then you better make damn sure that it's relatable. And the way that you do that is character development. You don't just throw supporting protagonists in and expect the audience to magically give a #$%$@#!!.

Now if your point was that the age of the audience, instead of the characters, is what would excuse this then you'd have a much better point. Kids don't care about what makes sense and what doesn't. They just want a distraction. And on that point, of course you'd want the story to go as fast as possible so that you don't bore them.
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In a lame attempt at trying to not be a fuddy duddy and get some converstaion going, I'd like to pose a question:

If Sailor Moon Crystal does get popular enough, do you think we'll get a new video game out of the deal? Jojo got a new fighting game when they started airing the new show. Maybe we might get something similar.
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Even if it did, do you think they would pay the right people enough to even do remote justice to the series. Not to mention, look at what you had to do to the story just to get some continuity.
Life is like an orange, it is small, round and has a few pips in it... Oh, and some have half of one for breakfast.
Not really talking rpg wise necessarily. The brawlers and street fighter clones in the 16 bit era were pretty damn good. Just about anything that they can come up with, really. I think something can be made that's worthwhile.
signature image Some things can't be unseen.
Years later, it's a good thing Crystal never got it's own game xD
signature image "We must fight with ourselves...within our hearts...and we must do it harshly, in order to come to the right conclusions."
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